CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins discuss the Cavs’ schedule for the upcoming season. They analyze the rankings and projections for the Eastern Conference teams and discuss the Cavs’ potential for improvement. They also discuss the shooting abilities and potential growth of Max Strus and Evan Mobley. They analyze Strus’ shooting percentages and volume, highlighting his value as a floor spacer for the Cavs. They also mention the need for Mobley to get to the free-throw line more often and the importance of his physical development.
Takeaways:
- The Cavs’ schedule for the upcoming season has been released, and there are several key games and stretches that could be challenging for the team.
- The Cavs are projected to have 48.5 wins by Draft Kings, which is similar to their performance last season. Improvement will depend on factors such as the team’s start, the schedule, and overall performance.
- The Cavs should aim for a high seed in the Eastern Conference and prioritize regular season success, as playoff seeding and matchups can greatly impact their chances of advancing. The Boston Celtics are seen as a formidable team in the conference, and the Cavs would prefer to avoid facing them in the second round of the playoffs.
- Max Strus is a valuable shooter for the Cavs, although his shooting efficiency can vary. His ability to contribute consistently will be important for the team’s success. Max Strus is a valuable floor spacer for the Cleveland Cavaliers, despite his shooting percentages fluctuating from season to season.
- Evan Mobley has the potential to increase his scoring and rebounding numbers, but the team must balance his offensive growth with their overall success and playoff aspirations. Mobley’s ability to create his own shot and get to the free-throw line more frequently could significantly impact his scoring output.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. I’m joined by who some may consider their favorite person on this podcast, Jimmy Watkins. Jimmy, how you doing? How is your week going? I know you’ve been busy. Brown’s coverage, everything coming up very quickly. What’s on your mind? What’s going on?
Jimmy Watkins (00:32.974)
favorite of some. Did not know that my parents wrote into the subtext, but I do appreciate both of their support.
Ethan Sands (00:38.796)
Hahaha!
Ethan Sands (00:43.49)
Man, man, sometimes you need a little love from mama and papa, know, especially since it was mom’s birthday the other day. That’s what you get when you give the shout outs. Jimmy, you know how it rolls. But no, I definitely have seen on subtext, like previously too, that people just love your analysis, love your columns, and be able to get your thoughts and feelings on not only the calves but the browns as well. So it’s good to have you back on, buddy. I hope you’re having a good week. But today.
We are going to talk about the Cavs schedule, right? It came out before I went on vacation. We haven’t really gotten to go into it in depth, but we’ve talked about some rankings and some people that have said where they think the Cavs may fall based on the schedule, based on the Eastern Conference, Western Conference, how strong those are. You hit up our guys on subtext talking about the Eastern Conference and how DraftKings has them set up.
They have them ranked fifth in the Eastern Conference with Boston at 58 .5 wins, Knicks 52 .5 wins, 76ers 51 .5 wins, Bucks with 50 .5 wins, and the Cavs with 48 .5 wins. Then you have in the 6, 7, and 8 seed, it’s the Magic 47 .5 wins, Pacers with 46 .5 wins, and the Heat with 44 .5 wins. So obviously, that’s…
kind of the same bar that’s been set for the Cavs, right? Cause they had 48 wins last year, whether or not that is going to be an improvement this season is going to be dependent not only on how they start, but also the schedule and how things round out. So before we get into this one, I want to get your perspective on the regular season schedule for the Cavs, how you think it shapes up. And if you picture or like circled a game on your calendar, that’s your most excited for.
Jimmy Watkins (02:41.602)
I think we’re starting off pretty hot. Honestly, we go opening night, JB in the Pistons, right? And that’s going to be an emotion. I mean, everyone’s always ready to go coming out of the gate, right? But that’s going to be an emotional game. JB is going to have those guys ready to play. I the Pistons have a lot to prove in general, but he’s pretty good at getting young guys to buy in. And again, as we talked about on the podcast,
It is reasonable for JB Bickerstaff to feel like he got an unfair shake from the Cavs. I don’t feel that way. I think we all understand why the Cavs felt like they needed to move on from JB, but particularly if I’m trying to drum up a little bulletin board material, I might play that up a little bit if I’m JB. I might give an impassioned pregame speech about how the Cavs cast him aside and
I don’t know that the media is casting the pistons aside. did not hand up, did not look at the pistons over -unders on DraftKings because this is just not relevant right now. Like they’re still trying to climb their way out of the basement. So yeah, think that’s really interesting. And then I think it’s two nights later, LeBron Lakers come to town. Like it’s always an event where LeBron comes back to Cleveland and especially as we get
closer to the end of his career. And I really do think we are inching up against it. I think this is year 23 for him.
That’s we, we got to, we got to treasure every, every glimpse we get of that guy in the formerly the Q now rocket mortgage, rocket mortgage field house. think we’re starting off on the MBA is doing that intentionally beyond that. could not tell you when they play Orlando for the first time, but that’s always interesting to me. the Knicks interesting to me anytime they play, you know, one of these established top four, five kind of, Eastern conference contenders, Philly, Boston, Milwaukee.
Jimmy Watkins (04:51.042)
Always worth watching. Always worth watching.
Ethan Sands (04:55.222)
Yeah, I think those are good ones. Obviously the start of the season is in Toronto. They go out to Drake’s little fandom, little spotlight out there and start the season out there. But the home opener against Detroit, I think that is like you said, Jimmy going to be a spotlight game. and it’s starting off really well. And then I kind of go all the way to December where you kind of got this slew of games, at the beginning of the month and even to the middle of the month.
where it’s really slick competition. You start the month at home against the Boston Celtics. Then you go to December 8 in Miami. And then December 20, they play against the Milwaukee Bucks. And back to back, they play against the Philadelphia 76ers. And then two days later, they play against the Utah Jazz. And I don’t know how often, if at all,
Donovan’s been able to play. I know last season was rough for him against the Utah Jazz because he was either injured or sick throughout those different accompaniments and when they were playing and it was like, all right, Donovan, are you ducking your own team? Even though they’re not really on the spectrum, right? So for me, I wasn’t really looking at a specific game, but I was looking at like stretches because we all know, we remember when the Cavs went on a good hot stretch.
last season when Donna, when Darius Garland and Evan Mobley were out this year, I’m looking at where they might struggle and if there’s room for them to improve throughout as well. But we remember like March and April were really rough Western conference schedules. but that kind of gets a little bit earlier for this year for the Cavs. I’m talking about when they go to, obviously they’re playing against the Indiana Pacers twice and it kind of like,
baseball series is home and then away January 12th and January 14th. Then they traveled to OKC January 16th and then they’re in Minnesota on the 18th and then they come back to Cleveland to play the Phoenix Suns on January 20th. So that’s like a tough little stretch, especially when we talk about this draft King standing where you have guys like the Indiana Pacers who are in the seventh seed ranked wise with 46 and a half wins.
Ethan Sands (07:16.268)
And that was one of the things that you had asked the subtexters, Jimmy, which was which team projected above the Cavs seems most beatable and which team behind the Cavs scares you the most. So Jimmy, I wanted to get your thought on this, but for me, I think it’s really quick, right? I think it’s the Bucs because we’ve seen that either Giannis and Dame haven’t gotten messed together yet, or Jared Allen’s been able to be able to stifle
John is onto the Kumpo at the rim. And obviously you have Isaac Okoro currently or potentially because he still hasn’t signed the qualifying offer, being able to guard Damien Lillard. And we know how bad that matchup was for Dame last year. My goodness. So I would say the Bucs would be the easiest team. And then for me, the team that scares me is the team that, or it doesn’t scare me, but the team that I think the Cavs would be most wary of is the team right behind them, the Orlando Magic.
the sixth seed in this ranking poll by DraftKings. I think it’s just they added a defensive presence in Cantabria’s Caldwell Pope already on a defensive minded team. Then you also have Paola Bencarro coming into the scene and you think he’s going to make another jump trying to become one of the phases of the league. And not to mention you still have Franz Wagner on this team. Plus you got guys that just, Mo Wagner that just…
gets under the skin of the entire Cavs organization in fandom. So Jimmy, I’m going with the Buxer would be the best suitable matchup right now for the teams that are above the Cavs. And then I also have the Orlando Magic as a team that I think they would least like to see. Maybe we’ll call it in a seven game series at this
Jimmy Watkins (09:04.41)
If we’re talking, when I sent the text, I was just thinking like regular season win totals. We can do both though. If we’re talking regular season win totals, I think the Sixers and Bucks are both pretty attainable benchmarks for the Cavs to get to because I think, I mean, those are old teams. Like old and oft injured teams. Paul George, I believe is like 34, 35.
And Joel Embiid is in his late twenties, like spiritually that man’s knees are like, he’s, he’s heard that the Philadelphia 76ers main objective in the 2024 -25 regular season should be to get Joel Embiid and Paul George as close to 100 % by the end of the regular season as possible. Whatever you have to have to sacrifice in terms of, in terms of seeding.
I don’t care. they are, which is funny because you normally would just normally these kinds of rest teams are the teams that have established themselves and done it before made deeper playoff runs. Even, even one titles, right? Teams like, you know, people, Cavs and Warriors, for example, would lose even when their stars were playing like inexplicable games. It’s like due to lack of effort. I am, I would encourage the Philadelphia 76ers like Paul George, don’t play, don’t play a defense on 10 every night.
We need you to get there, buddy. We need you to get that. We all love watching Paul George play basketball. Dude, as smooth as all get out. We want to, we want you there in May. We want to see what that team can really get to. Joel Embiid. Like Joel, like I don’t, I’m trying to think of the number of regular season games that Joel Embiid should play that is like before we start getting crazy, like 60. Like if we, if the 76ers go into this season saying we are structuring this season for Joel Embiid to play 60 games, 55.
Like, I’m sorry about your all NBA awards and whatnot, but like, we’re trying to get a ring here. The Bucks are kind of in a similar situation. Damian Lillard, we’re just trying to get you there. Chris Middleton in particular, he’s been battling injuries the last couple of years. He’s a sneaky important piece to that Milwaukee team. We’re just trying to get you there. Giannis, you can’t control. He’s going to be playing like a two -way madman for probably 70 plus games, which is how it works. But even him, he’s been injured in the first round, each of the last two years in the playoffs, and they’ve lost in the first round.
Jimmy Watkins (11:27.802)
each of last two years in the playoffs, wasting years of the onus is prime. So I do think both of those teams are going to be a little bit smarter about the regular season. think the Cavs, maybe the most puzzling number on that list is the Cavs sitting at 48 and a half.
They won 48 games last year and they lost Evan Mobley and Darius Garland for six weeks each and they never really got Darius Garland back as we’ve discussed. I understand that the East is, the league is better as a whole. There are going to be fewer, you know, bottom feeding teams that you can beat up on. And as I said, like I do think Milwaukee and Philly are going to take their feet off the gas pedal, the regular season a little bit. I understand that the East is better, the league is better.
really, I wrote my preseason column last year was that the Cavs get the two seed because I just think the regular season matters more to them than it does some of these other teams. I still think that’s true, man. Like I think playoff seeding matchups means a lot to them. Like if you’re, if you’re Boston, Boston’s probably still going to be the one seed because they’re a death machine. But like if Philly, Milwaukee, we, just advocated for both of them to actively suppress the regular season record. The Cavs can’t be thinking that way. I mean, by all means we need to get Donovan Mitchell.
the playoffs as healthy as he possibly can. And the same goes for the other three, although they’re younger guys, load management, not as big of a question there. think they were just riding down pretty hard at times during that big winning streak they went on last season. But the Cavs should be gunning it. The Cavs should be going for a two -seat next year because you want to sidestep any possibility of
Orlando seeing Orlando, I think Orlando is going to be much improved. They will definitely be the team you don’t want to see the team that can catch the Cavs. think Orlando can catch the cat. Orlando is in the same boat as the Cavs. think they can catch teams like Philly and Milwaukee too, if those teams aren’t careful because the KCP addition cannot be overstated. It’s not just the he’s a shooter, man. think his shooting percentage has been a little bit inflated by playing with the best passer on planet earth. Nicola Jokic the last couple of years, even before that, when he was playing with the Bron, he had a
Jimmy Watkins (13:39.962)
He shot like 41 % during their championship year. His career numbers are closer to mid to high thirties. But still the Magic are looking for like shooting competency out there. And the KCP is getting up high attempts, high volume attempts, and he’s a great shooter. That’s a huge addition for them. Their defense is going to be very good once again. They’re a young team. They’re going to be hungry. So I think I just answered both those questions at once, but I really, I do think that like the Cavs have
legit 55 win potential this year, if they can stay healthy enough and they go for the regular season the way I think that they should because they’re, they are as incentivized to get a high seed and try to avoid some of these, get home court and playoffs and then try to avoid some of these, other big, big stone throwing teams in the East. think you show me your incentive. I’ll show you, I don’t know what that expression is. Show me your incentive. I’ll show you the result or I’ll show you your.
Something someone in subtext knows what I’m saying right now. They’re yelling it in their, they’re yelling it in their car, but show me the incentive. I’ll show you something. The Cavs are motivated to win a lot of regular season games. So I think that’s what they’re going to do.
Ethan Sands (14:51.022)
That is a bold statement before preseason, before we even seen the big three really of Philly, the Vandy boys of New York. The second seed in the Eastern Conference, woo -wee! I’m not gonna say it’s not possible, but 100%. I don’t think, right, and I don’t.
Jimmy Watkins (15:07.886)
They should be going for it. They should be going for it in a way that these other teams aren’t. I the Knicks, yeah, the Knicks are, I don’t know. I’d worry about Jalen Brunson falling apart just because of Tibbs. that team is gonna, I don’t think that guy’s ever gonna learn his lesson. And I worry about the Knicks. The Knicks are a great regular season team. They have a lot of injury prone guys and I don’t know. They make me nervous. They make me nervous.
Ethan Sands (15:21.4)
Hahaha!
Ethan Sands (15:34.798)
100 % they definitely do I mean talking about falling apart Josh Hart should be the one to fall apart before Jalen Brunson, but Joellen Bede I wanted to touch on that before we get back to the Cavs topic of them making it to the second seed in the East and I mean I had them probably fifth best but what is possible with the injuries and stuff I think is a good point I mean Joellen Bede hasn’t played more than 65 games in a season more than twice
in his entire NBA career.
Jimmy Watkins (16:06.178)
It’s so sad. He’s such a great basketball player.
Ethan Sands (16:08.79)
Right? And like, there’s been arguments about Joe Ellen Bede being the best player in the NBA currently. He just doesn’t play because he’s hurt all the time. Right? And the conversation is him and Nicole Jokic. I’ve heard people talk about him being better, Joe Ellen Bede being better or a better fit or whatever. But Nicole Jokic is always there. He’s a tank. He’s always there for his team. Right? But.
Jimmy Watkins (16:34.234)
By the way, to your point about Josh Hart, I just feel like Josh Hart is going to be on local New York City commercials, cutting promos the way we have people cutting Mesothelioma commercials around here. Was your career shortened by a Tom Thibodeau regular season rotation? Call 1 -800 -JOSH or something like that. We’re going to have that. We’re going have that. He’s going to be old Derrick Rose. have his arm around him. Lew Aldang.
Ethan Sands (16:41.389)
Hahaha
Jimmy Watkins (17:04.506)
That’s, we need to raise awareness. Tim, you need to, you have a really fun team. Let’s ease into it.
Ethan Sands (17:15.886)
Maybe that’s his plan. Finally, Tom Thibodeau might actually take some minutes away because you gotta stagger minutes with OGN and OB and McAlbridges and Josh Hart and Jalen Brunson and all these other guys. I mean, Mitchell Robinson is gonna be thrown in there somewhere too.
Jimmy Watkins (17:34.66)
I think you just named all six of the dudes that are gonna play all the minutes for the next year.
Ethan Sands (17:39.374)
They don’t have a bench that is their downfall they like no no disrespect
Jimmy Watkins (17:43.822)
I mean, it doesn’t even matter. don’t care. Last year were one of the deepest teams in league. didn’t matter. were ravaged by injuries. That’s a weird coincidence that is.
Ethan Sands (17:56.59)
I mean Dante DiVincenzo as well. I don’t want to leave him on that list, but I mean if we’re talking about regular season going after it I think the teams that are I mean Boston is at the top right Boston’s at the top and Then New York if New York plays how Tom Thibodeau wants it to be they’re gonna try and win every single game because that’s just how New York does so best Best I think the Cavs could do
would be the third seed. Realistically, I would say fourth or fifth seed, right? And I’ve said that before on this podcast, but I like when you’re talking about Jimmy, I like how you’re making me feel about this team, how you make me feel about the want, the desire for guys to get to that next level. But that’s the other thing, right? About this team that they also have may recognize they don’t want to be a regular season team. So maybe Donovan Mitchell obviously was a portion of
the that JB Verstappen is no longer a part of the Kazza organization. Right? So maybe he has a conversation with Kenny Atkinson and goes, hey man, that can’t happen again this year. I got to play less so I can be at 100 % the entire season. Right? Because we know that Donovan Mitchell was sick last year. He was injured last year. He came back from the All -Star break, not feeling 100%. But
He knew he had to be there for his team. There were times last year where Darius and Evan were out and Donovan, at the end of the season last year, Donovan felt like he had to come back because they had to get a position that they wanted or whatever. pushed himself to the absolute limit and it hurt him in the playoffs. That cannot happen this next season if they want to get to where they want to be, right? So I think, yeah, you’re right, Jimmy, they’re going to want to go for it, but there’s got to be some balance to that. And there’s got to be some Mary to that, like deciding whether or not
to go at this very moment and to go into the playoff, make a deep run, I think it’s very, it’s, what’s up?
Jimmy Watkins (19:58.866)
You know what else can happen? You know what else can happen if they want to get, if they’re going to get to where they want to go. They can’t play Boston in the second round. And if you’re playing that four or five, maybe Boston, I don’t really see a world. even with the championship, Malay is disinterested. Boston is so good. I don’t see a world where they don’t get the one seed next season. So that two, three line is going to be so important for a lot of those teams to, to try and avoid, just put, kick the rock down the road. Like.
Let someone else try to knock Boston off. know like the Cavs will tell you, don’t want to duck. We’re not going to duck any smoke. We want it all. You don’t want to see Boston the second round. You just don’t. They’re drug or not.
Ethan Sands (20:38.19)
Well, you are preaching to the entire Cavs fandom based on what happened last season in the last game of the season to me, because we’ve had this argument, we’ve had this discussion, whatever you want to call it, about what the Cavs did or did not do, wink, wink, at the end of last season about playing the Charlotte Hornets, saying before the game that they were going to rest and make sure that their guys were ready for the playoffs, and then…
noticing that they were playing the Charlotte Hornets and put in the second unit and then everything falls apart, right? And you were trying to play the game of trying to get seating. We’re not going to run away from smoke. We’re not going to do, we’re not going to duck nothing. We’re like that. We don’t run for anything, right? Just like to be said, like Darius Garland, quotably said, we don’t duck smoke.
Well, you might have ran in the smoke, right? You might have ran into the fire, right? They don’t never tell you to run into the fire unless you got a fire fit and you’re ready for the fire, right? The Cavs, at that point in time, after going through a seven game series with the Orlando Magic, were not ready for the Boston Celtics mentally, physically, and just overall psychologically, right? Not to mention, Jimmy.
We’re talking about the team that took Darius Garland out. Maybe by accident, right? He ran into Kristaps Porzingis. Obviously, helped a little bit that Kristaps wasn’t playing in that series. But I don’t know for you, but for me, Darius Garland is driving to the lane every single time, going to the bucket, trying to get to the basket. And before each game, you go, Kristaps Porzingis might be returning to the Celtics this series.
Something’s going to hit, trigger something. You go have that mindset. And we talked about that last season about how he was fading away from the basket after that injury. I mean, you broke your face, dude. I don’t blame you. you can’t. This is like what the entire situation is, is whether or not the Cavs are going to be able to do what they need to in the beginning.
Ethan Sands (22:53.172)
of the regular season, win the games that they’re supposed to win. Right? We’re talking about football earlier, Jimmy. You’ve got to win the games that you’re supposed to win to be able to put yourself in the position to win the games that you’re an underdog in. And a lot of people are counting out the Cavs this year because one, they didn’t make any changes in the Eastern Conference that changed a whole lot this off season. And two, they have a couple of different issues.
that could arise and we’ve talked about it at an abundance. Does Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell work? Does Evan Mobley and Jared Allen work together, right? And Jimmy.
Where does Max Struz fall into all of this? Because we’re talking about a guy that had the playoff experience and needs to be able to play that way. Do you think that Max Struz has a bounce back year from his lack of shooting that he did last season? And how do you feel like he’s gonna be able to impact this team going forward?
Jimmy Watkins (23:57.594)
I mean, I feel like Max has always been, Max has always been more of a like high volume three point shooter than a high efficiency three point shooter. Even going back to like his college days at DePaul, I think he maxed out at like 36 % or something. But on like eight attempts per game, that’s the value in Max True’s. You have to respect it because he’s gonna, he’s gonna sling that thing. And he, when he gets going.
He’s, he’s real, he’s a real capital S shooter, but the kind of waxes and wanes or maxes and wanes, if you will. And I think that the max Max, it’d be nice for Max to, to, you know, to shoot like he did during the Miami playoff run that got him paid all the time. But I guess.
That’s not the reality. The Cavs can cross their fingers for him getting hot at the right time in the postseason. But for the most part, Max Drus as an offensive player has kind of shown you what he’s going to be. He’s going to hover around the mid to highish 30s on a high percentage. That’s good enough. The Cavs just need guys that can space the floor around Donovan and Darius and Evan Mobley and Jared Allen who invert that spacing.
But yeah, think Max is going to be just fine, particularly because he does all the other non -box score. He was one of their best rebounders during the playoffs last year. I think he had a couple of nine rebound games. That’s huge. He’s competitive as heck on defense and the intangible stuff that he brings to a team that’s trying to…
the edge that he brings to him. Max, when Max Schruess loses a playoff game, you don’t really want to talk to that guy. He really like compared to everybody hates losing Max Schruess, like Max Schruess is in a bad, bad mood when he loses a playoff game. I think that’s healthy for this team to be around. And I think that bounce back. don’t know, man. I think he was, he was really good in a lot of ways for the Cavs last year. It’d been nice for him to make
Jimmy Watkins (26:15.86)
few more threes but that’s that’s who he is. volume guy, he’s not a high efficiency guy.
Ethan Sands (26:22.102)
Yeah, I mean talking about talking to a player after a game after a loss, right? Like you love the guys that like in theory hate losing more than they enjoy winning, right? But then having to talk to those guys and get their perception of what went wrong. What went right is a completely different conversation. Donovan Mitchell is another guy that hates losing more than anything, especially in a playoff game. But I wanted to get into this question from our subtexter about Max Struce.
He said, hi guys, related to Max Trues, have heard you guys and Chris talk about how Max had an off shooting year last year from three point land. He’s a career 36 .5 % three point shooting shooter, but this seems driven by one year, 2021, 2022, where he shot 41 % and he shot 35 .1 % last year, 35 % the year before in the regular season from three point land. seems more like he is a mid 30s percent shooter from three. What provides confidence
there can be an improvement on the margins in shooting percentage from deep. And Jimmy, I think what you touched on earlier is really important for this, right? Because it’s less of efficiency and more so of volume because Max Drus shot 6 .8 attempts from three point range this past season. That’s his second highest. I mean, the only one that he shot more in was 2022, 2023 with the Miami Heat where he shot seven.
And for this Cavs team, the only person that shot more or attempted more three -pointers per game was Donovan Mitchell, right, with nine. And Donovan shot 36 .8 % from three -point range the last year. So I think it’s important to also consider what he brings to the table when it comes to points per shot attempt and all those little things that we kind of sometimes forget about because Max Trues was in the 81 percentile
four points per shot attempt, which is like the 22nd in the NBA last year. And it was, he had guys like Buddy Hield in front of him, Zach Levine, Guys who were getting to the basket more so, and even Buddy Hield who we know to be a great three -point shooter. For me, the upside is, this was like one of the first times that Max was really a forward.
Ethan Sands (28:50.35)
He’s been playing wing shooting guard more so his entire career. I feel like Max is going to get more comfortable in this role, not only offensively, but defensively. And that’ll allow him to have less fatigue. Plus we also know like when we talk to Max Drews after these games, he’s like, sometimes I need to shoot more to get into a rhythm because we’ve seen Max Drews. If Max Drews gets hot in the first quarter, sometimes it’s just that quarter, right? He could have 18 points.
in the first quarter and then he doesn’t get his attempts throughout the rest of the game because he’s trying to do so many different things. I think if he’s able to spread those out or even get the same amount of shots that he feel like he needs because in those playoff series, he would talk about like people would bring up his percentages and how he felt and stuff like that. And he said, sometimes I didn’t feel like I got enough attempts. I didn’t get to shoot enough. And that comes from being a volume guy. Right. Because when we talk about
guys in the playoffs in the postseason only getting like six instead of their seven or whatever, it can get fluky. And I watched a video the other day on Mike Miller from when he was with the Miami Heat playing alongside LeBron James, D -Way, and Chris Bosh, all of them, and how he had to literally go and do work.
on the side, like he would have to go run on a treadmill for five minutes and then shoot baskets. Because sometimes that would be how long it would take for him to get an absolute shot, like a fully good look. And he would have to take it and knock it down. Because like we talked about with guys like Isaac Okoro and Sam Merrill, their attempts are less so and they’re going to have more time in between each look because obviously you want Donovan Darius.
Evan Mobley taking more of those looks that is going to be harder. And Max Drews kind of falls into that category too. And if his efficiency goes down, it might be because he’s not as in rhythm. So I think somebody like Mike Miller having that kind of mindset, maybe that kind of training could help him this next season. And I don’t know if he’s doing that, per se, but I think that that could be helpful. And I liked watching that from Mike Miller the other day. But Jimmy, do you feel like this is like something we should be worried about with Max or something that
Ethan Sands (31:12.718)
is just a regular thing and Cavs fans are just gonna have to get used to that 35%. Do think he can pick up again like he did a couple years ago?
Jimmy Watkins (31:23.29)
I mean, I guess, I guess, I don’t know. It’s always possible for a guy to get hot, but like our, like our buddy from Subtech said, is Max Ruse’s repeatedly showed us that he’s closer to a mid to high thirties on high volume kind of shooter than he is a 40 % three point shooter. Again, nothing wrong with that. He is a guy that defense need defenses need to respect. He averaged career highs in points per game, rebounds per game and assists per game.
last year for the Cavs. And to your point about, mean, I could, I could actually see the attempts going down a little bit because you look at, you look at the roster guys who attempted, let’s, what’s the cutoff here? Let’s say four threes a game. We’re going to max Donovan Darius, Sam Merrill, Keris Lavert, George Nying. So Donovan Darius.
have the ball in their hands a lot. Those are not the kind of guys that you’re setting up for catch and shoot threes. What we’re looking for here are guys who can bend the defense in a way that opens lanes for Donovan and Darius. Karras -Lavert shot five threes a game, shot 32 .5 % on him. Guys are gonna guard him out there, but he’s been an up and down shooter for stretches of his career. George Niang, we all know what happened in the playoffs. It didn’t work out. Yehope for a bounce back.
season for the minivan, like, it’s, kind of a, you got to show it to me in the playoff situation with him. Sam Merrill, that’s a wild card. That’s a wild card. I mean, I think Kenny Atkinson might be a little bit more open to playing a guy like Sam Merrill. He’s a huge offensive weapon. And that would certainly open up opportunities for Darius and Donovan, but also also can open up opportunities for Max because when you have basically one guy who’s spacing the floor, I mean,
Donovan or Darius always have the ball. So in lineups where Donovan or Darius are the only one of that pairing on the floor, you’re going to have sometimes in Max and I don’t know, there’s going to be some George lineups out there, there can be, it’s easy for a defense to orient itself to not help off of Max. It’s easier to do that when there are not as many capital S shooters on the court.
Jimmy Watkins (33:45.722)
force ball handlers a different direction where they have more help, they have, or toward a shooter where they are more willing to help off, right? So, I mean, we need for Max to get to shoot more threes, which I think, by the way, I would take, if Max Struz shoots 35 -ish percent on seven and a half threes, I still think that’s an improvement for him next year. It would be nice for.
Karras’ jumper to shoot a little straighter next year would be nice for George Niang, who by the way had a very nice regular season last year. That would be nice. It’d be nice to see Sam Merrill to get some more run as well. Give defenses more, like have them scrambling around more, make the defenders think more about guys besides Max. That would also happen. Kenny Atkinson will be drawing stuff up to get Max on the move more as well.
I think Max Schuess is fine, man.
Ethan Sands (35:26.25)
With the Sam Merrill situation, I think it’s interesting because you talk about a guy that had kind of come to the NBA after being in the league for a couple of years moment, right? Because he was really come into fire and he was a guy that people didn’t really have on their scouting reports and now it’s like, you got to watch out for that guy because he’s a sniper. And I mean, he shot 40 % from three last year. I think it’s going to be an interesting scenario when it comes to Sam Merrill because one, yes, Kenny Atkinson, like he said, Sam Merrill actually was on a recent podcast that I was listening to. And he talks about being excited for this new group working with Kenny Atkinson.
It was some time in Las Vegas during summer league, all that different stuff. And they hadn’t gotten into like sets or anything, but he said that he was excited about the new staff, excited about the team that they have. And I think it’s going to be interesting for Sam because there’s two sides to the coin. More teams know about him now and are going to be more wary of his abilities from behind the arc and are going to like always have eyes on him and stuff like that. But he’s also going to be in a more offensive minded system.
that’s going to allow for him to have more sets ran for him and off the ball screens and things like that. And we also know how much Sam was already moving, trying to mimic his game a little bit after Stephen Curry to create separation, create offense for him and himself, but also how much that helps his teammates because you have to keep eyes on him when he’s on the floor. I think it’s going to be really weird just to see what is ran because it’s going to be so different from what we saw last year with a defensive minded coach. But Jimmy, think
When it comes to this team, this roster and what we have with the makeup, in talking about guys that have the ball in their hands a lot more, another subtexter asked is, is would it be outrageous to think Mobley could score 20 to 22 points per game in 10 rebounds again this coming year? I’m really thinking he will take the jump with the high tempo and offensive minded coach, Kenny Atkinson, of course.
And this is from our guy Brandon from Charlotte, who’s actually currently in Eerie PA, which is right around the corner from us. But Jimmy, mean, 2010 for Evan Mobley this year, if he increases the three point mound or if he, or I know you don’t like that much as much if, or even Chris doesn’t like that as much. If Evan Mobley is able to just create his own shot, put the ball on the ground and attack defenders.
Ethan Sands (38:21.032)
And it’s funny because we talk about watching these videos that are put online and all these things all the time. But like, even when you’re talking about the competition level, it can be high. We’ve talked about him doing runs with Kevin Durant, with Chet Hongren, all these different stars around the league. sometimes you just get more comfortable in these open runs because you’re not running sets. You’re not offensively.
trying to do things and create open spaces and sometimes you’re just testing your game, growing your bag as the kids say. But Jimmy, do you think that this is a season that Evan Mobley can grow in? Do you think that this is the year that we see Evan Mobley take that jump as he’s added a little bit more to his bag, added a little bit more confidence to his three point shot, presumably this off season and from last year?
Jimmy Watkins (39:16.094)
I got two thoughts here. First, real quick on Sam Merrill, that’s a guy who needs to be watching your Mike Miller video. Because he’s the guy that jumps out to me from the playoffs last year who was learning just how hard it is to be a specialist. mean, Sam Merrill, when Sam Merrill plays in the G League, they don’t bench him when he misses three shots. When Sam Merrill was playing at Utah State, they were like, this is a focal point. Our job on offense is to set as many screens for Sam Merrill and then throw him the ball.
Okay. so that’s, that’s interesting. I that’s a connection that I made in my head, to the Evan Mobley point. It’s possible. mean, again, show me the incentive. If Kenny Atkinson wants to make that a goal and an emphasis is Evan push more after rebounds, which again, JP had that emphasis to Evan beat guys that Jared Allen is.
is one of the fastest big men in the league. Allen probably gets four to six points a game just by sprinting after he throws an outlet pass or after someone else gets a rebound. Push that down, Evans. Push that into Evans’ head as well. If you want to, again, JB was doing this, but throw in the ball more at the elbow. Let him create. Throw him in the midpost. Let him work out. These are not new ideas, but again, if you wanted to make that an emphasis, I think it’s possible.
We literally just saw him average 21 and nine in the second round of the playoffs against Boston. Now, of course, of course, of course, of course, Jared Allen wasn’t playing in that series. But yeah, I know that potential is in there because I saw it at the highest level. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say it’s out of the question. I don’t necessarily think the Cavs are going to prioritize it that way.
particularly if they’re doing the regular season sprint that I would recommend, because I don’t know that facilitating Evan Mobley’s growth is a valid use of the regular season. Facilitating Evan Mobley’s offensive growth may not maximize your win total. Does that make sense? Like, think that two things, like, you have to be careful here with the Cavs as you try to both experiment.
Jimmy Watkins (41:35.746)
And see what else these, these young guys can give you and work Darius back, like get Darius feeling comfortable again and get Evan Mobley some more touches. And don’t forget about Jared. know, Jared Allen, average a career high in assists last year, make him feel involved in the offense too. and then of course, Donovan Mitchell is. You know, the best player, maybe the second best player in franchise history, depending on how you feel about Kyrie. but at the kind of rub is there’s a rub there between maximizing Evans development and.
getting the highest postseason seed possible. think more established teams with frankly that I have more confidence in seven game series. I would choose the Evan route and you still have I think you still make a case that it’s more important for the Cavs to get as much Evan Mobley offensive development out of this season as it is to win 55 games and get the two seed.
but if you think you’re ready to win, if you think you can legitimately make a run this year, like I think playoff seating matters a ton for this team. So actually that’s a really, that’s a really interesting rub that the Cavs have to look at. also think if that’s, if that’s the case, I mean, once again, JB Bakerstaff tried this, but if you’re going to try to maximize Evan’s offensive output, you need to stagger him and Jared as much as you possibly can, like minimize the amount of time they, they play on the floor together because it’s
The Boston series is a small sample size, it was enlightening, eye opening, whatever, how much more space he had, how much more comfortable he looked because duh, there’s not another, there’s not, not just one, like it’s not about Jared cramping him. It’s about whoever’s guarding Jared basically being able, like whenever Moby catches the ball, it’s like Jokic against the Lakers. Like the Lakers are guarding Jokic with Rui Hachimura in the playoffs, but Anthony Davis is standing over Rui’s shoulder ready to
double team at any moment and leaving Aaron Gordon alone in the corner. Jared Allen’s not even in the corner, he’s in the dunker spot. So whoever’s guarding him, whoever’s guarding him is no more than four to six feet away from Evan at any point if Evan’s in the paint. It’s just hard. It’s just hard to operate that
Ethan Sands (43:49.312)
Two things on that before we wrap up. think, I mean, one, to average 20 points a game as simple as it sounds and as difficult it actually is, it’s just four points in a free throw every quarter, right? But to the other point, like, Kobe Allman’s talked about being more proactive for the development of Evan Mobley this season, right? Because they kind of…
put it on the back burner offensively at least because I knew how great he was defensively and what he brought to the table on a nightly basis and how much that meant to the organization. That’s the biggest thing, right? Now they’re saying, okay, we see you. We see that we cannot get to where we want to go. If your offense stays to where it has been the last couple of seasons, we saw the glimpse that everybody saw that Jimmy pointed out multiple times on this podcast against Boston.
And what does that mean? Can we get that on a nightly basis? Can we get that all the time? Does that only come from that series? And I think Jimmy, your question about whether they go for that two seed in the 55 wins or they prioritize Evan Mobley’s offensive growth is difficult because you would think to like a common believer, they would go hand in hand, right? If Evan Mobley is the best player on the team, that that’s what they’ve been talking about, that that’s what they need for this team to go further.
Or do you see that maybe that burns him out too much to go and get a playoff victory? Whatever it may be because we’ve seen that and we’ve talked about that on today’s podcast. So to our subtexters, I’ll throw this to you, right? Like, would you rather the Cavs get the second seed and finish with 55 wins? And I feel like this is an easy answer for most Cav fans, but or would you rather have like a
good fight in the Eastern Conference semifinals again, or get past there if you have everybody healthy. Because I think it’s, when you put them on.
Jimmy Watkins (45:56.612)
With the caveat though, with the hard fight, okay, you losing the second round, but you go into next off season feeling much better about Evan Mobley’s offensive future.
Ethan Sands (46:06.686)
Yeah, because you see who they might have matched up against. And this is hypothetical, right? Because we don’t know if they’re going to play Boston again. We don’t know who their matchup’s going to be, what they’re going to do in the last game of the season like they did last year, whatever. But would you take an Evan Mobley growth, a spurt, whatever you want to call it offensively, over getting further in the confidence when it comes to playoffs this year? Because we’ve talked about it.
Jimmy on literally our last podcast and I said if they don’t win an Eastern Conference or get to an Eastern Conference finals, try to get to an NBA final, win a championship in the next three years in the window before Donovan Mitchell’s player option kicks in and he has to decide if he’s coming back to Cleveland for a 10th season in the NBA and trying to accrue all that money for a super max or whatever or going to a different team and seeing if the Cavs aren’t
the team to get him past the Eastern Conference, Western Conference little bump that he hasn’t gotten over, which are you going to take? And I think that’s tough because right now or before, when Evan Mobley was drafted, it was always, does this team have to have Evan Mobley as the best player to win an NBA championship or can it be Donovan Mitchell who leads the team? And there’s been a lot of difference and there’s been a lot of talk about it. We talked about it with Kobe Yelpman.
We talked about it with Kenny Atkinson, who said that it doesn’t have to be Donovan. It doesn’t have to be Evan. It can be either one. It has to be somebody, though. Somebody’s got to lead. Somebody’s got to step up. So I just think it’s interesting. And Jimmy, what do you think?
Jimmy Watkins (47:51.162)
I got one more thing on Evan. got one more thing on Evan. Easy points. You said four points in a free throw per quarter. Evan will be averaged. I have a Kyle Lowry. I have a Kyle Lowry basketball reference paper. Evan will be averaged even 3 .3 or 3 .4 free throw attempts per game last year. That is less than a free throw attempt per quarter. Attempt. He’s not making all these. These are just attempts. Kyle Lowry who is six feet tall.
And basically like over the past three, four years of his career has not even really tried to attack the rim. Like he’s, he’s a pull up three point shooter at this point in his career. just takes charges and takes pull up threes. 3 .9 career free throw attempts and his heyday, was an elite floper. like, there’s gotta be a way that we can get Evan Mobley to the free throw stripe a little bit more. Obviously again, that’s, that includes making a more point of emphasis on offense, but like.
Put your shoulder into somebody, more pump fakes, ETAL, more free throw attempts for Evan Mobley. That’s an easy, easy points per game.
Ethan Sands (48:58.816)
I pulled up Evan’s stat line. He has not averaged four free throw attempts per game in any of his three seasons. The most he had was 3 .8 in 2022, 2023. His average for his career is 3 .7, right? So like…
Jimmy Watkins (49:13.498)
It’s like one, basically one -ish, one in some chains shooting fouls the game. Like you’re seven feet tall. You’re at the, a lot of your shots come at the rim. A lot of people hitting people down there. Let’s, let’s benefit from that.
Ethan Sands (49:20.362)
Yeah
Ethan Sands (49:26.024)
Right, and I think also him implementing the dribble moves that we’ve seen or whatever, or just creating his own shot is going to cause defenders to be like, what the heck is that? And reach in and foul unintentionally, whatever. But also, like you said, I think we’ve all thought this to ourselves. Not only did Amane Bates need to beef up a little bit this off season, Evan Mobley did as well. Because if he’s going to be this full -time center for the Cavs, if Jared Allen gets traded or…
that they figure out that that doesn’t work, he’s gonna need to bang with the guys like Joel Embiid, Yana Sananacumpo in the Eastern Conference. So that’s gonna be interesting to see if he bulks up or has bulked up this off season. Media Day is less than 28 days away, less than a month away. So I think that’s where we’re gonna wrap up. So with that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember,
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