CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins discuss Luke Travers signing a two-way contract with the Cavs and Isaac Okoro’s contract situation.
The conversation also delves into the financial implications of the team’s current roster and the pressure to win a championship. Overall, the discussion highlights the successes and challenges the Cavaliers have faced in the past two years and the expectations for the upcoming season.
Takeaways:
The Browns’ home opener is predicted to be an ugly game with few points due to limited training camp reps for the offense.
Luke Travers joining the Cavs as a two-way player is seen as inconsequential in the grand scheme of winning a championship.
Jaylon Tyson is considered the best replacement for Okoro on the current roster.
The team’s success is largely attributed to the acquisition of Donovan Mitchell, who has proven to be a valuable player and has signed a contract extension with the Cavaliers. However, there is pressure for the team to perform at a higher level and make it to the Eastern Conference Finals or beyond in order to keep Mitchell satisfied and committed to the organization.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. I’m joined by Jimmy Watkins, columnist, cleveland .com, in the building. Jimmy, how are you doing, my friend?
Jimmy Watkins (00:24.134)
busy man. It’s football season, times two for when college. I’m on the road this weekend from Michigan, Texas. I’m going to Browns every day. You see the different background. I’m dog sitting for mama. And we’re talking hoops. Sports are back. Summer is a summer wasteland is over. Let’s go.
Ethan Sands (00:46.668)
Man, man, man. I just got back from vacation. am reeling, Jimmy. I am trying to get back in the flow a little bit under the weather. Got a little bit sunburnt while I was in the Bahamas, dude. Trying to figure out my way back into this Cleveland weather situation. It’s a lot going on. I’m trying to figure out if this is even gonna be an audio only podcast if I deem myself too goofy to look at for 30 minutes. But, Jimmy.
Jimmy Watkins (00:54.901)
yeah.
Ethan Sands (01:14.92)
I do know this is a Cavs podcast, obviously, but I wanted to get your insight. Football season, as you mentioned, is around the corner. Starting up on Sunday, you have the home opener for the Browns. Do you have a prediction for us on this podcast?
Jimmy Watkins (01:31.824)
for is that what we’re saying? I expect few points, I’ll start there, because the Browns offense, I just don’t think got a lot out of training camp. They were prioritizing, they were prioritizing rest and getting guys back from injury. And as a result, this offense hasn’t had a ton of reps with its first team. So I expect few points, I expect an ugly game.
Ethan Sands (01:34.282)
Yep, yep.
Jimmy Watkins (02:01.872)
on Sunday, which honestly might, and the Cowboys are in a similar boat. If you’re hearing that jingling, that’s our friend Nala who wants to be pet right now. The Cowboys, and CD have had contract disputes. The CD missed a lot of practice time with his contract dispute. think both sides will probably look a little rusty on offense. Both sides are very talented on defense. I guess that kind of favors the Browns, right? Cause they’re at home and defense plays.
one of the best defenses of all time statistically last year at home games. yeah, gave me the Browns like 17, 14, like real ugly, real ugly. We’re not going to have a ton. There won’t be any inspired Deshaun Watson columns coming out of this game, but that’s not the end of the world. This is a long process there. I think the defense is going to rule the day on both sides, but I’ll take, I’ll take the Browns by like three.
Ethan Sands (02:57.408)
taking the Brownies over America’s team in the first game of the season. I like it. I like it a lot. But, all right, Jimmy, we talked about this a little bit off the pod. Are you in a fantasy football league this year? I’m in one for the first time in like three, four, five years. What are you doing? How are you feeling? How are you feeling about your team if you are in a league?
Jimmy Watkins (03:18.884)
I am, I’m in too many leagues. So we’ll see how, we’ll see how the year goes. I have, I did win, I did win my, I don’t know, the league that I’ve been in the longest last year. So I have currently have a trophy in my living room that depicts the face of a former Athens, Ohio landlord on it. That’s our trophy.
Ethan Sands (03:41.718)
Robobies, baby, Robobies. But now back to what you guys are all here for. Cavs reporting, Cavs Talk, the White and Gold Talk podcast, baby. We’re back. And Jimmy, while I was gone, a couple of news items hit the fan. Obviously, the Cavs have now used up all of their two -way player options, with Luke Travers being the last one to sign that deal, also JT Thor and Ahonty Bates.
Those are the three guys that the Cavs are going to have as a two -way option, being that they’re either going to be able to get opportunities in the G League with the Cleveland Charge, or they’re going to be up in the big leagues with the Cavs. What do you think about adding Luke Travers after the summer league that some may say wasn’t as
wasn’t as inspiring as many might have wanted for a two -way guy on this team. Coming from Australia, coming from the NBL, what do you think about Luke Travers coming into this next season?
Jimmy Watkins (04:54.084)
I I mean, for the most part, big picture calves look at this. Inconsequential. Like, I guess if you zoom out far enough, it could mean something down the road, but we’re talking about like, you know, winning a championship in the immediate future. Two ways aren’t the guys that help you do that. These are kind of the connectors, I would say, of like the dog days of a season, right? You’re looking at these guys to play.
spot minutes when injuries hit your roster or if you’re resting a bunch of guys you want to get a look at a guy like Luke Travers who has not seen a ton of NBA reps. This is mostly just news about a former draft and stash that’s a little less stashed now. My opinion on Luke Travers as a basketball player
is still mostly like I like his size, but we’d love to see the jump shot come around. like the rebounding out of a guard spot, but it’s a pace and space league and particularly for a Cavs team that plays two bigs, it’s kind of a prerequisite for you to at least make teams respect you as a shooter. the percentage kind of peaked up, I think the year before last with Travers in Australia, but he’s still not a high enough volume guy where I’m even really seriously considering the jump shot to be where it needs to be yet.
He’s a cool basketball player. a big guard who can rebound and in theory help you on defense, he needs to, the barrier for entry for him has still not been cleared. We need to see him knocking down some shots.
Ethan Sands
And as we’re recording this, is apparently Luke Travis’s birthday. I’m pulling up his basketball reference, trying to get into his international stats a little bit, Jimmy. And I find out that he was born on September 3rd. And this podcast will be released today because we want to do a Tuesday, Thursday release right now as the information is kind of winding down and we’re getting towards training camp and all those things. Speaking of training camp, Jimmy.
The Cavs announced that they’re going to Orlando to Florida. I don’t know if IMG Academy is actually in Orlando, but they’re going to IMG Academy for training camp. It’s going to be an interesting situation because we know that IMG Academy has one of the better facilities for a high school prep organization, but I haven’t been to a training camp before when I’ve covered MLB, NBA, all these other sports.
And I haven’t been to a training camp before. I’m hoping I get to go down there and just experience everything that comes with the earlier on. And then also media day coming up. And I have expressed my very much excitement for media day because I, again, haven’t done that yet because I came in three games into the season last year. So now it’s kind of showing face and being like, hey, I wasn’t just a one trick pony. I’ll be back a couple of times. But I mean.
I think all of this to say, Luke Traver is going to be on this roster. He’s going to be in training camp, going to be able to experience. And we talked to him during summer league and he mentioned explicitly that he wanted to get to the NBA ASAP. We know that he was in a mutual agreement to part ways with Melbourne United, which was his team in Australia. Now he’s with the Cavs. So let’s look at some of his numbers from last year.
Ethan Sands (10:15.82)
With Melbourne United, he played 25 games. He averaged 26 .3 minutes per game. He averaged 51 .6 field goal percentage, 32 .7 three point percentage, and he averaged 12 points a game along with 7 .6 rebounds per game, which is good for somebody that is playing overseas. And we understand the competitiveness of those games, those series, all that different stuff. But during summer league,
We were having the conversation of players that have gotten the grooming of an NBA system, players that have gotten the opportunity to solely focus on something that they know. And for me, the three point shot for Luke Travers at 6 ‘6 as a guard, somebody that wants to handle the ball that potentially might get slid into the small forward position needs to be more efficient, right? We look at that 31 or 32 .7. I want that to be a little bit higher for Luke. I want him to be more efficient, more…
just better with the opportunities that he’s been given, especially in the G League. I feel like this is gonna be a great opportunity for him to not only grow in himself and know that he’s in this market, he’s being in the NBA system, but now you get opportunities to work with some of the best in the game, especially even in the G League. We saw Amane Bates grow last year, we saw Craig Porter Jr. be able to showcase his abilities a couple of times down there, but throughout the entire history of the G League, there have been players that have gone from
being not known and as Jimmy mentioned earlier, stashed away to coming into the G League, showing themselves and then earning a spot. Even if it wasn’t with the team that they were originally on, they were able to show themselves and get some opportunities in the NBA system. And I think that could be a factor for Luke Travers, depending on how he grows in the system, what he’s able to gain from being in an NBA weight room, all those different things. But Jimmy, the next thing on our docket today
is the two remaining roster spots that are open for the Cavs because Isaac Okoro still has not signed his qualifying offer. The $11 .8 million that has been given to him since earlier this season. Even when Amadi Bates got his, it was around the same time. Jimmy, what is your sense of what this means for Isaac to be quote unquote still shopping the market this late into the off season?
Ethan Sands (12:43.392)
Training camp like we mentioned around the corner and him still not on the deal that’s been on the table for what seems like forever
Jimmy Watkins (12:54.103)
I mean, like, what are your options at this point? Right. Like we’re, we’re going into training camp teams are solidifying their roster. Like you can basically, like how many teams even have cap space right now? I, I don’t have Spote Spote Spote Rock spot, spot rack, Spote rack. I don’t know. I never know how to say it. I know how it’s spelled. I don’t have it hand. I don’t have it handy right now, but most of the league has spent most of its money and
If they, if there were teams who had interest in Isaac Kukuro, I feel like that interest would have manifested by now. mean, maybe we’ve talked about a team like the Pistons who made a late -ish hire in the coaching cycle with, with JB Bickerstaff, who obviously has a ton of experience coaching Isaac and his defensive focused and all those, all those good boxes that an Isaac Kukuro team would check. like, I feel like we’re kind of just waiting for Isaac to.
take the qualifying offer at this point, which I mean, I guess it could go either way if he has a better shooting post season. I don’t really, again, we’ve established on this podcast that I don’t really care what Isaac Okoro’s three point percentages during the regular season, particularly as often as he is left open. you can, and I don’t want to say trick somebody, but you can trick somebody with a playoff run. Like if,
Let’s assume he comes back on the qualifying offer. The regular season three point percentages, even if it’s not hovering around 39 % like it was last year, it’s better than his career average. And then he just gets hot for a couple of weeks in the playoffs. Like we have, we have seen lesser defenders, lesser toolsy players than Isaac Okoro get bigger paydays off of one playoff run where they shot the ball better than they, they typically did. So it’s.
It’s kind of what it’s always been. It sounds like he’s going to need to bet on himself. that puts him, honestly, that puts him in a pretty interesting mental position heading into next season because we’ve talked a lot about with the jump, with the jump shooting guys who have, have the ups and downs. a lot about confidence and you can really shoot yourself into or out of a groove. when you’re, it’s, it’s a lot of pressure to, you know,
Jimmy Watkins (15:20.005)
It’s a lot of pressure in general to be the guy that teams leave open to go, he’s with us. He, you know, he can’t shoot whatever, right? That’s a, that’s a lot of, a lot of spotlight on you in the first place. Now you’re like, no exaggeration, especially when we get to the playoffs. Those moments are like determining your future earnings in a big way. Like the difference between four out of 10 threes in over a two, three game playoff span and three out of 10 threes.
could be like $10 million a year, which that’s an oversimplification. seriously, we’ve seen you see guys get paid off a plan for this happens to I mean, Max Drews kind of did this for himself in Miami and he’s his shooting has more staying power. And he’s I think he’s more of a he’s really proven himself as a rotation guy as a two way rotation guy in the league. like. Isaac Coro has the opportunity to make and especially in a new cap environment.
that at least that kind of money if he shoots if he shoots his way into a different conversation as a 3 and D guy. So it’s but he also has the app like if you he comes back let’s say comes back next year and it looks similar or like the regular season numbers don’t tell the whole story and he’s playing in three pointers open three pointers in the playoffs and maybe that hurts his minutes in the playoffs like you might just you’re in a different kind of conversation.
You’re a defensive specialist instead of a three and D guy, might be, you know, I think if we use like the mid level exception as like a line of demarcation for a guy like Isaac Okoro, he’s young enough where teams will still bet on him. But like if, if the jumper isn’t real, your earning potential is just limited as good as he is defensively. And as he’s a great finisher and transition, all that sort of stuff. Great teammate, great locker room guy.
The jumper will, same thing with Luke Travers, the jumper will determine what he is or isn’t.
Ethan Sands (17:24.81)
And it’s not uncommon for like a situation like this to play a player like Isaac out of the league. Like you’re a top five guy that was drafted, right? You’re supposed to be someone that is supposed to come in and make an immediate impact, right? But also in Cleveland, it was a weird situation where he was brought in and kind of thrown into the fire. Like, we’re still rebuilding. You’ll have time to figure this out. And then a year or two later, that entirely changes because Donovan Mitchell joins the team.
And effectively the team goes from we’re rebuilding to hey We need you to start making these buckets in the playoff or you’re not gonna be here very long And that’s just a cruel reality of the NBA and how things can swing in a matter of moments in a matter of seasons, right? But Isaac is like also you talk about the mental aspect of it He’s gonna be going up against players on his own team if he ends up taking the Cavs qualifying offer which at this point I think is just
the reality of the situation is that like you’re going up against your replacements basically and Jaylon Tyson and Imani Bates and guys that who if they can build their defensive game to not your level but close to it like people are going to respect them more because they have a reliable offensive game quote -unquote I’m not saying
that rookie Jaylen Tyson is gonna come in and steal the spotlight or whatever like Craig Porter Jr. kind of did last year. But there’s an expectation that because he had a little bit more seasoning, because he has the opportunity to play multiple different positions, point guard through small forward, you can play him. He’s a little bit taller. He has a little bit more grit to him, a little bit more strength to him. And he understands that his weakness is defense. He came in saying.
and saying that he wanted to still be on the all -defensive team, right? Doesn’t matter whichever one he wanted, he wants to come in as a rookie and prove that his weakness is gonna turn into his strength. And I think that’s a mindset that a lot of people came into. I still think Isaac Acora was hungry, right? There have been videos circulating on the internet. As you guys know, I’m always looking at all of those things. And he’s worked out with Donovan Mitchell this summer, right?
Ethan Sands (19:44.872)
And Donovan’s probably talking to him about the situation as well and trying to help him figure out what is going on, what the best play is, all these different things. But you also know that you are like, your contract is going to end this season, whether you take it or not. Right. And he takes this qualifying offer, he becomes an unrestricted free agent. Same thing kind of kind of situation with Caris Laverte. Your contract is going to come to a close really quickly and your contract looks really tradable.
Especially when we have these young guys that come up that can do the same things that you can add a lower price because we understand Caris Levert has some market in this league Caris Levert has some likeable likeability from coaches around the league that want him to come play for them or whatever but in this situation It’s what can you get more for your bang for your buck in the situation for the Cavs when they’re trying to figure out the first apron second apron luxury tech all these different things that
with the new CBA are affecting them and will affect them for the next couple of years with all these maximum contracts they’ve been giving out, especially this off season. So Jimmy, just, when it comes to Isaac, when it comes to Luke, who we mentioned is 23 years old today, happy birthday, like, do you feel like, who do you feel like is the best replacement on the current roster for the Cavs for Isaac Okoro? Because I think we’ve kind of said,
before that Jaylon Tyson is like, Karen’s the first replacement. Do you think there is a replacement for Isaac Okoro if he ends up getting traded or something this off season or if he comes back in place for one more year, it doesn’t have the year that he needs to get an extended contract.
Jimmy Watkins (21:29.669)
Couple things on birthdays. First, today is also my mother’s birthday. So shout out to moms and fellow Cleveland .com employee, Andrew Gillis, covers Ohio State for us, had the same birthday as my mom, I know, because we all went to college together. So happy birthdays to everyone. The other thing is, Eskikoro is also 23 years old. we, we’re, we, everything about Lou Travers is we have to project and envision and we’re having the conversations that we’re having about Isaac’s jump shot right now.
I think the cabs would love to be having those about Luke Travers’s jump shot right now. Like Luke Travers is shooting, like I had to take down my basketball reference page because our recording software doesn’t like when I have multiple tabs open and it freezes me out of the studio. But like the attempt numbers are really still really low for Luke Travers. that’s on limited minutes in a different league, in a different environment. But like, I took a Coro.
as much as we still want to see from him on the offense event, he’s much further ahead than Lutre. So in either any of these cases, honestly, like I guess I would say my answer to your original question is Jaylon Tyson, just because the Cavs invested a higher draft pick, higher draft pick in him than the other two. And he seems to be a little bit more ready than the other two to play NBA minutes. Doesn’t mean I think he’s going to be ready soon. Like I don’t expect to see much of Jaylon Tyson at all this year.
in terms of consistent minutes, legitimate minutes, unless injuries happen. So I mean, Isaac is, it’s as much about, I’m glad you mentioned trades. I think it’s as much about guarding against, like Isaac Coro needs to convince the Cavs that they don’t need to add another three and D type player, a player of his ilk who plays a similar role position as him. We’re talking about the Donovan Darius fit or the Jarrett Allen, Evan Mobley fit for
If we’re talking about moving one of the core four, we’re talking like, we’re probably talking about getting an Isaac Okoro player type back, archetype back, right? Like we’re talking about somebody between six, five and six, eight who defends well and shoots a good amount of threes and hits a decent number of those three, decent percentage on those threes. I don’t know a guy like, let’s take a guy like Trey Murphy.
Jimmy Watkins (23:54.511)
from the Pelicans who the Pelicans are really high on, but they also have like a kind of a log jam at that wings. They got him, they got Herb Jones, they got Brandon Ingram, multi -positional guys. Like if we’re talking like Darius Garland for one of those guys in some picks, if that’s the move, I like it. I kind of like it. Yeah, so Isaac Corro’s guarding against that too. He’s not just trying to hold off these young guys though the Cavs are smart to replenish.
replenish their cupboard of young wings. Like everyone, if you have an extra asset or roster spot in today’s NBA, unless you just love a long shot bet out there, you’re, you’re pretty well served. Just take, you know, picking straws out of the, this guy’s six, six kind of lengthy and can move his feet. Maybe we can teach him how to shoot or this guy’s six, six and can shoot. Maybe we can teach him how to be a decent team defender.
Picking out of that box. That’s the other thing about a guy like Isaac Okoro. Reality is in today’s NBA, we are simply more forgiving of a player who is offense first. Like if you were an Isaac Okoro level shooter, like if Isaac Okoro, if you are on offense, what Isaac Okoro is on defense, you’re going to play 10 years in the league. That’s just what it is. If you could shoot like that, even if you’re like…
Think of a guy like Steve Novak from the Knicks who like barely played on most of the teams he was on. He was around for a while. If you are, I mean, if you’re a guy like Isaac Kora, who by the way, is making, taking tangible steps, like it’s, know I said, I don’t care about the regular season numbers, but it’s better to have the regular season bumps than not. And he is taking steps in the right direction there. Like if you, if this, like if his jumper, if he had never,
I think he came in shooting like low thirties or something on low, low attempt volume. Like even as good as he is on defense, like if you start to lose a step athletically, the slope is real slippery for players that can’t shoot or impact a game offensively. we’re just like, there’s always going to be a room at the end of a rush for a guy who can come in and, you know, be a three point specialist. If you’re down by three with 3 .5 seconds left, there’s less room for like how many Tony Allen’s are in the league.
Jimmy Watkins (26:19.235)
That’s kind of a player from a bygone era. Those guys are just not, they don’t last as long and they don’t have, the teams just don’t have the same patience with them. Like if you can’t shoot, it’s a real quick hook for you in a playoff series. And as a result, it can be a quick hook for you, you know, in your future.
Ethan Sands (26:43.474)
And Jimmy, we talk about Isaac Kikoro’s defense, right? And that is his end all be all. That is his, like, he is one of the best in the league perimeter defenders when it comes to guarding one through three, right? And I wanna start giving him four and five because then it gets tricky, right? We saw what happened in the Roledo series with Paolo Vanchero. That’s a tall task to ask of him anyway, but.
Who did the Cavs have to replace him on defense? And if you want to tell me, and I’ve had this conversation with Chris before, if you want to tell me, if you want to tell me that it’s Karras -Levert, and I see that, right? But isn’t he also going to be gone soon too, predictively? Like, isn’t that what we’ve been thinking because of the contract situation, because of his likeability around the league? So if you’re getting rid of Isaac Coro and Karras -Levert, you’re telling me that the
Best perimeter defender then on your roster when it comes to the guards is probably Donovan Mitchell? Maybe? Like, that’s a, that’s you could say Struz. Yes, yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (27:53.283)
I would say streus, but because of the size, but the quickness, you either way you have a hole to pick out there.
Ethan Sands (28:03.764)
Right, but technically, Struus is a three right now. Even though I don’t want to call him a three, he’s a three on this roster. So, I mean, like, if you’re talking about just guards, on the roster of the Cavs, it’s between, it’s not Darius. And because, like, what the conversation then becomes is, is Darius is being asked to step his game up offensively, right? And still, like I’ve been telling you, in the videos that I’ve been watching and posting this summer, he looks like he is working.
tirelessly on the offensive end of the ball. Defensively, it don’t look like he’s taking that big of a step. There’s been different clips of him working out with Bronny James, him being working out with Jordan Clarkson, him in runs against KD and some other guys like that. He does his stuff on offense, but then when it comes to the defensive end, it’s like, are you tired? Do you know you’re gonna be giving more time to the offensive end so you’re not really worried as much about that? What is that conversation then?
And then you talk about Donovan Mitchell, who, as we saw in different lineups last season, when you put him next to Isaac, D -Wave, a version of Evan Mobley or Jarrett Allen, depending on what lineup you want to go, maybe you put them all together. And Donovan is able to use IQ to run into the passing lanes, use his hands, use his wingspan and stuff like that. But when it comes to one on one, when it comes to staying in front of your man on an island,
I don’t really think Donovan Mitchell is going to be that defensive stopper, right? And that’s no slight to Donovan Mitchell. It’s just the era of offense and how this league is being run. So you need somebody who is going to be able to play defense at the high level at the point of attack. Dean Wade does it for the forwards and for the centers and stuff like that. Isaac Okoro does it for the guards. Max Struce did it against guys like Jaylon Brown and Jason Tatum in the Boston Celtics series.
What are you gonna do if Caris LeVert and and and Isaac O ‘Cora will no longer there because you consider those two to be the best perimeter defenders on this team I think it’s gonna be really weird to think about this is being going from a this is a top five defense in the last two seasons to They might score 140 like the Pacers did but are they gonna be able to stop people on defense if they’re outside of the perimeter, right because
Ethan Sands (30:29.088)
We understand Emma Moley and Jarrett Allen go do the stuff at the rim. They gonna be able to do those things. Moley can slide out to the perimeter and help out on bigger defenders. But how much is that gonna impact them on both sides of the ball? What’s your take on that, and how that’s gonna come to fruition this next season?
Jimmy Watkins (30:49.869)
I think we’re kind of, this now we’re circling in the point as we talk about, you know, what happens with Karis, what happens with Isaac long -term. What we’re talking about is again, as much as the Cavs are keeping it together and running it back and betting on continuity and betting on Kenny Atkinson to make the existing parts work better than they did before. And this roster’s, this era of Cavs basketball, then this roster as it’s currently constructed is approaching ahead.
Like a fork in the road. This is a salary cap reality where Donovan Mitchell’s on a max deal. Darius Garland is on, you know, he signed a max deal at the time of his rookie extension. Evan Mobley just signed a rookie extension. Jarrett Allen, I think the Jarrett Allen extension is fine. He’s the, he’s paid like the 10th best center. He’s 10th best center in the league. Like that’s where his salary ranks in the position last I checked at least. And if you look at the
the list is probably like the 10th best center, but like those four add up. So we’re going to, we’re going to come to this situation pretty quickly here where the calves are going to be floating with the second apron, which is extremely puny. I don’t want to do too much cat minutia on the pod, but basically if you hit a certain threshold over the luxury tax, it gets real hard to build out your team. Like you can’t.
You have to match exact salaries and trades. Your ability to use your mid -level exception gets limited. I’m freestyling some of this stuff, but if you do it for a couple of years, your first round pick five years out automatically gets moved to the end of the first round. The second apron is a place where if your team costs that much money,
You better be sure that it’s ready to win a championship now, or at least contend for one, whatever that means to you now, or we’re going to start moving pieces around. there’s just, we could talk, as a Gokoro plays a crucial role on the Cavs is currently constructed. You’d like to have an elite perimeter defender to guard your, you know, your jitterbug guards who, know, your six, your Jaylon Brunson’s who dribble a lot in our pick and roll operators.
Jimmy Watkins (33:12.983)
Isaac is unique in that he can guard those guys and guard, you know, your normal sized wings. I think we probably hit the line at our guy like Palo Banquero who’s giant and can do everything. Although Isaac, you know, performed admirably at times in the Magic series. It’s just that, you know, Palo was taller than him and can shoot over him sometimes. So there’s just a lot of, this is a big year for a lot of people.
It’s magnifying for Isaac because he’s going to be in the last year of his deal and the Cavs are going to have to like, that’s like, we’re in kind of the same position now as we were last year, just kind of more so the Cavs doubled down on, we think this core four is good enough to get us to where we want to go. And I don’t think that’s unfounded. I also think that there’s just those decisions as we have previously discussed.
are influenced by the fact that, you know, they didn’t like the trade market when they did. I promise they did sniff the trade market for both Jarrett Allen and Darius Garland. They won’t say that. They won’t say that publicly, but I promise they did. So it’s kind of just like they’re doubling down. Now pressure is even more magnified because they’re getting closer to this, this financial threshold that makes life very hard on a team. And if you
If you reach the second apron and you’re not ready to win, it’s hard to get, it’s hard to put yourself, it’s hard to climb out of that. It’s hard to be a team that is a second round team. You’re stuck in the second apron because your flexibility, your ability to improve your roster is thrashed by the salary cap rules. So we’re having a small conversation about Isaac Kouro and maybe Karras LaVert and who could fill these roles.
going forward, by the way, this makes the Jaylen Tyson, I wrote this at the time, whoever, I think I wrote it before they picked Jaylen Tyson. This might be the best Cavs draft pick in terms of positioning that they have for like the next five years. Certainly the Cavs would like that to be the case because they’d like to be picking at the end of the twenties. So like that Jaylen Tyson pick is very important over the next five years. They really need him to be something. But the Cavs are in a position where there are like, you know, seven guys on the team, seven.
Jimmy Watkins (35:34.213)
And you can think of them, the seven most important guys in the team are kind of all in that situation. They need Evan Mobley to take a huge step forward. They need Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley to prove they can coexist together at a high level in the playoffs. They need Darius Garland to have a bounce back season. They need Donovan Mitchell to cement, like have a playoff run that says, you put anyone around me and we’re going to the Eastern Conference finals. Like you need him to be that level star. He’s top 20 now. It’d be sweet if he was top 10. You know what I mean? So.
We’re just having a, we’re having a small picture of conversation about the cast, but it’s hard to have these conversations about minutiae without talking about their existential reality, which is just that, yeah, a lot of things better start happening for a lot of people in this organization.
Ethan Sands (36:21.322)
Yeah, Jimmy, I cannot count on one hand, maybe not even two hands, how many times I’ve said that on this podcast, man. Like, this is the season for everybody on the Cav to kind of show themselves because, like you said, and you said it really, really well, there’s an entire roster of players that have to prove themselves in one, maybe more than one, areas of this game, right? And I think that’s really important to touch on. But…
Here is the biggest question for you and I on this podcast today, Donovan Mitchell signed with the Cavs or agreed to sign with the Cavs two years ago, two days ago, right? He posted it on Twitter on September 1st and did his little thing that he always does before the game when it tells you that he’s gonna play, when he says hashtags, let him know, right? So he’s back for another season.
just signed an extension, potentially is gonna sign another extension after he accrues 10 years of NBA service to be a lifelong Cavalier afterwards. Two years in, two years in Jimmy, do you think that the Cavs training for Donovan Mitchell, winning 99 games over the next two seasons is a success or do you think it has brought
too much distraction or something else to the entire team that has made this more difficult on the organization. What is your take? And I’ll get into mine after.
Jimmy Watkins (38:01.477)
There’s two ways to look at this. The first way is that the moment you traded for Donovan Mitchell, it was a success because the Cavs, look at what the alternative was. The Cavs were building something for sure. They made the play -in tournament during the year before they acquired Donovan Mitchell and they were on a 50 -win pace for a lot of that season before injuries hit them. I want to say in that February, March window that kind of slowed them down during that was a 20.
2021 -22 season? I think that’s what it was. Yeah. Cause Don’s first year was 22 -23. and now they’re again, now you’re now they’re a top four playoff seed or they’re about for two years. No, they literally top four playoff seed two years in a row and they made the conference semi -finals. They’re still a ways away from the peak, but look at where you started. Look at where you are. This is what Kobe Altman often says when we talk about big picture conversations with the Cavs. He’ll go even further back. Look at.
Look at the John B line years, look at where they were before they drafted Mo and, traded for Jarrett. You know, it was, it was some dark times in the post LeBron years. Now they’ve won 99 games in two years. The Cavs are a development success story, particularly for a small market team. And I will reiterate again, to say that getting Donovan Mitchell to sign an extension after this trade, the summer’s extension I’m talking about the extension that will take him to 10 years of service is a massive victory.
for the Cavs and smart market franchises at large. It proves the validity and taking a risk like that and trading for Donovan Mitchell, even though you’re not on his quote unquote list of destinations. It proves that it’s worth it. You do another chance. They haven’t won anything with Donovan Mitchell. haven’t, they’re basically, they’ve not even reached the heights that Donovan reached with the Utah Jazz and Donovan wanted to get out of there, in part because the Jazz were pivoting in a different direction.
You haven’t even reached Donovan’s initial threshold of his career yet, but you have more bites at the apple. So by those standards, unmitigating success and anyone who says otherwise is kind of smoke at something. Now, by the expectations you create by trading for Donovan Mitchell, I think one playoff series win in two years feels a little underwhelming. The catch word.
Jimmy Watkins (40:28.377)
decisive favorites over the next two years ago. did not have to rehash that the bully ball series, but that is a fact. They were, had more talent and they had home port advantage and they got smoked. Huge failure. The Orlando series really close to a huge failure. I mean, we could, we, we could, we’ve talked a lot about how that winning that series does represent growth for this franchise.
And the, by the way, the mental wherewithal to rebound from an 18 point half, halftime deficit in game seven, where the fans were booing you off the court at the end of the first half buzzer. That’s impressive too. But man, you were close to have hitting the detonation button. Like I don’t think Donovan Mitchell signs the extension if you lose that series to Orlando. And what’d you do after that?
You had one impressive playoff road win in Boston, but then the Celtics kind of, I don’t even want to say they woke up. They continued playing with their food. just also finished. They finished the meal and won in five games. So that we all know that’s not good enough going forward. And I think if you would have told Cavs fans when they made the trade for Donovan two years ago, Hey, you’re only going to win one playoff series over the next two years. That’s pretty disappointing. So.
My answer is kind of both, but I think we really should focus. It’s a win. You’ve got Donovan Mitchell and you got him to stay. That’s a win. Now you need to, now you need to tangibly win, which is again, we can talk, we’ve been talking in search. We need the season to start. We need media day. We need new talking points because the Cavs have run it back. We know what the roster is. We know what the stakes are. So now you just need to go in.
Ethan Sands (42:21.136)
I’m partially in agreement with you, Jimmy. And I want to say this, right? Because the last two years have been a success for the Cavs. Unfortunately, it has been a success based on adding Donovan Mitchell, trying to figure things out with the current roster, kind of shuffling things around over the last two years, but also understanding that you mentioned something earlier that kind of caught my ear was that
Donovan Mitchell is trying to show that you can put whoever around me and I’ma still be able to help this team get to where we want to go, where I want to go, right? And that reminded me a lot of LeBron James, right? Because we understand the players that he had around him that he was able to lift up and pull to Eastern Conference finals and VA finals. Positions that they, with the roster that they have, shouldn’t have been it, right?
This is a better roster than the players that LeBron James had around him, right? And I think that overall, Donovan Mitchell.
Jimmy Watkins (43:28.069)
I mean, better than the one he had at the end, better than the one he had at the end in 2018 and during the first window, if we’re talking like LeBron before he goes to the heat, definitely better, definitely better.
Ethan Sands (43:31.528)
everything. Right, right, right.
Ethan Sands (43:37.792)
That’s what I’m mentioning. Yeah, yeah.
When he had Ilgauskas and all of them, right? And you’re talking about, like, not the 2016 roster. We can compare the two, but I’m not willing to put this roster above them just yet. But I do think that if the Cavs cannot win, because Donovan has three seasons until his player option, if they can’t make it to the Eastern Conference Finals by then,
then I think it will be a failure. And the comparison that I was making between LeBron James and this team is, is that there were creations of super teams and tandems and big threes that were made in part to try and slow LeBron James and his teams down, right? Now you have the Knicks who were already doing that kind of sort of thing. Now they have the Vanity Boys, right? Now you have Philly who have a big three.
That over there. Joelle Paul George and Tyrese maxi now you have still Milwaukee who’s trying to add on and create their own little thing with Dame and Yana Sotsu the compo There are teams that are around the league obviously Boston Celtics, right? I feel like we don’t have to mention them. They’re already at the top of the league at the moment There are teams that are continually building around the Cavs that are trying to get better
because I think they have a vantage point that this Cavs team could do it if it would have been the same roster that they had last year against the same rosters around the Eastern Conference, right? Now it’s gonna be a lot harder. Now there are people saying that the Cavs are fifth in the East, sixth in the East if you wanna throw in Orlando or Indiana are better than them with the chemistry or whatever, but that’s what makes it difficult.
Ethan Sands (45:38.06)
The first two years were a trial period, right? You get a free trial for the first two years. You get him to sign an extra contract extension. Now you got these next three years before the player option season. Do you make it to where Donovan Mitchell has been saying that he wants to go? That when Chris was talking to him, he said, I want to show that I’m a playoff player, Eastern Conference finals, NBA finals. Will you reach that goal? And if you don’t,
I think it’s hard to see if he’s gonna be back for a player option or if he’ll be willing to say that the Cavs organization is a team that is going to be able to get him over that hump because he still hasn’t gotten past that second round. And that’s where he needs to be to be where he wants to be in his career. So Jimmy, I’m with you, I’m split. Right now, yes, it is a success, but.
It can very quickly turn into something that is not, depending on how this next season goes. Cause as we said, it is going to be a big year for a lot of different people, but, but it is also going to be a year where if people don’t play to their standard or their level, they could be moved and brought in new players that could either bolster this lineup in rotation or in the thruster, or it could be another,
Horizontal move or it could even be a decline. So this season is big I know we’ve said it before that this like last year was Because they wanted to get Donna Mitchell to make this extension this next season is it? Because you have players like Jarrett Allen and there is Garland who could potentially be on the trading block depending on if the tandem between there is Garland and Donovan Mitchell doesn’t work and the tandem of Emma Mobley and Jarrett Allen doesn’t work
How does that change your roster? How does that change your outlook? Do you move Evan Mobley to the five? All those different things. Do you get a real shooting guard? All those things, right? I just think that this is the comparison to how LeBron uplifted his team and how Donovan Mitchell can uplift his team. And he’s shown that he can, but to what extent? To what level?
Ethan Sands (48:01.63)
Where are you going to be able to take this team? So Jimmy, I don’t know if you have a rebuttal to that or anything, or if you’re ready to just wrap this pod up on those notes.
Jimmy Watkins (48:12.997)
I would say I like your comparison about LeBron, early stages LeBron. And in fact, I’d kind of writing about that. We’re doing our Cleveland .com top 40 most influential list. That’s gonna, I think we’re starting to release those in like a week or so. We’ll see. I’m still plotting out the exact start date for those, but Donovan’s in top 10 and I’m writing a column about how Donovan rekindles the energy.
energy, the basketball energy of early days, LeBron in Cleveland, right? And it’s, think we kind of forget almost what that was like because LeBron, the second act of LeBron was so cool and everyone was so invested in the Cavs Warriors rivalry and the three one comeback culminating in the block, block by James, block by James is the defining, the defining two weeks of LeBron’s career. But the, the first act, I think
because those LeBron teams were so good, and by the way, the East at that time was so mid. Honestly, they didn’t have a team that could really stand up to those LeBron Cavs. I think the fan base kind of forgot how much of a struggle it can be to climb into that top tier. Like you have, they have a really talented roster now that can’t get out of the second round, which is really frustrating. But man, that’s the reality. That’s the reality for a lot of these teams. And by the way, that doesn’t mean that it’s okay.
Like Donovan Mitchell still has an expectation that he needs to win a championship. Not like Eastern Conference Finals. Okay, cool. That’d be a nice step to take next year or the year after. But if they don’t, if they aren’t close to winning a championship by the time that it’s time to talk about the next contract, he’s going to look somewhere else. So it’s two things can be true again, right? Like the Cavs have built it to a point where like, wow, they’ve taken a huge step.
But the next step, which is the most important step to Donovan is really hard. Look at Philly. Joel Embiid is like a top five NBA player, top three NBA player when he’s healthy, when he’s really going. Last year, before he got hurt, before he hurt his knee against, I think it was the Warriors in January, he was literally on pace to break Wilt Chamberlain’s record for points per minute. He was scoring more points per game than he was playing minutes per game. He was breaking math.
Jimmy Watkins (50:38.009)
That dude’s never been out of the second round either. He’s never been on the second round either. So like, it’s really hard. It’s really hard. That’s we need to acknowledge that as well. And I think there’s a kind of like, it’s kind of like, okay, to quote the corny J. Cole line, there’s a beauty in the struggle. There’s a beauty in the struggle. There’s a beauty in working, in having all this talent and, you know, pushing all your chips in.
pushing up against the salary cap, exhausting all of your draft assets, trying to maximize your win now window for a really talented roster and still not getting there. But that’s like, if this team does find a way to climb the mountain top, this will be part of the elation. That will be part of the elation of winning a championship, Is the ugly next loss and then the…
uglyish Celtic sloths. Like these are growing pains that are necessary, but not always acceptable. And that’s the tricky needle to thread, it?
Ethan Sands (51:46.206)
Yes, yes it is Jimmy. And I just came up with an idea that I wanted to throw out to our listeners because I forget that you’re such a big music guy because of all the sports that you cover and all the things that you do. I love J. Cole. J. is my favorite artist. And I’m thinking, maybe we do a Music Monday and a Food Friday.
So you hop on for the Monday pods and Chris does a food pod with me on Fridays. So we can get into the intricacies of all those different things and still let people know that we’re not robots. We can talk about more than just basketball and contracts and all the different aprons and stuff like that. I think Chris will be down for that potentially. So that’s.
Jimmy Watkins (52:35.181)
Yeah, basically I have two, I have, I have two parts of my brain. One is basketball reference, football reference brain, where I could quote you really weird stat trends about all teams I’m covering. The other is just wrap our brain where again, I’ll just like right there stream of consciousness. I’m thinking about, what are the Cavs doing? And that it makes me think of love yours by J. Cole. So.
Ethan Sands (52:57.26)
Gotta love it, man. You gotta love it. so to our subtexters, let us know if that is something that you would be interested in so we can give you some more hip hop, pop culture, whatever. And then also so Chris can do his little food stuff, especially while he’s traveling around the world, covering the team and giving you some top tier places that he visits. Maybe we’ll do a recap of every week of the places that he’s been. I think that could be interesting.
But with that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, Jimmy, and me by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can let us know if you want us to do something that’s more creative, not only basketball related, but this is also where you can send in your questions for anything Cavs related. So to do so, sign up for a 14 day free trial.
or visit cleveland .com backslash calves and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who signed up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the calves from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y ‘all be safe. We out.